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Camels....
http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12326		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  The_Rhinosaurous [ Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Camels....
Ok, so what is the deal here. Strength 5 2 attacks?!? that imo is crazy. A camel cannot run as fast as a horse and bucks like crazy (i have ridden camels and horses) it would be almost imposible to aim a lance or somthing while you are flying up and down. Horses are naturaly scared of camels but that doens't seem to be reflected anywhere in the rules. I was just thinking and a warg- a giant wolf/bear hybrid killing machine is stuck with s4 a1, while a camel gets s5 and 2 attacks. I just think this is crazy and was wondering if anyone else thinks the same.
Author:  Ferahgo the assasin [ Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
The reason for the 2 attacks is because of the tusks strapped to the side of the saddle as when they charge into the enemy the tusks inflict a lot more damage.
I also have ridden camels and horses and i agree with what your saying about the fact that it would be very hard to aim a lance or blowpipe.
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Camels....
The_Rhinosaurous wrote:
Ok, so what is the deal here. Strength 5 2 attacks?!? that imo is crazy. A camel cannot run as fast as a horse and bucks like crazy (i have ridden camels and horses) it would be almost imposible to aim a lance or somthing while you are flying up and down. Horses are naturaly scared of camels but that doens't seem to be reflected anywhere in the rules. I was just thinking and a warg- a giant wolf/bear hybrid killing machine is stuck with s4 a1, while a camel gets s5 and 2 attacks. I just think this is crazy and was wondering if anyone else thinks the same.


Yes, I agree, GW seems to have made everything more potent and unbalanced with the Harad release. Corsairs with 2 attacks for 10 points? Chieftains with Strength 5? Spare me.

I had also thought the same about camels and speeds (I thought maybe giving them a move of 20" would be good), but I looked into it and it appears they are on par. Also, lots of info out there about camel behavior...basically if you treat a camel like you treat a horse, you're in for trouble, because they're smarter, more stubborn and independent.
Author:  The_Rhinosaurous [ Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
yea it seems that things are getting more powerfull with each suplement- Like SQ's and now these crazy harad models- not exactly better but it just seems that it is getting a little off. I think that the only non hero human sized model with 2a should be a berserker- now you have pirates who can match these huge uruks. It just seems that it is getting unrealistic.

Camels were never used in war to much because (as whafrog said) camels are quite smart and very stuborn- i doubt they would go charging into a line of spears.

And i am very sure that a warg from lotr could take on quite a few camels...
Author:  Black_Dragon [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
well have you considered how the arabs used to ride camels into battle, i mean they were very skilled and so are the mahud who ride gw`s version.
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Black_Dragon.

Guys, Arabs used Camels since ages in war with all kinds of weapons, you can't compare your leasure riding to a camel especially trained for war with a trained rider...no no.

Even a non-trained for battle horse get scared from the weapons clashing sound and can throw his rider and run away.

Camel riders were like a special force in the Arab mediaeval army as they scare the horses (not reflected I guess) and have heavier charge, so I agree with the strength, and also rider was very well trained to balance and fight skillfully on the camel and were even sharp eyed bowmen, so I agree with the 2 attacks even aside from the tusks.

A major flow found in them was the fear from terrifying huge creatures like Elephants, which was discovered in the war against Persian armies as they usually used elephants. Muslims though used eye blinders to cover Camels' eyes in their battles against Persians and it was a successful trick.

So may be also an eye-blinder can be included as a war gear option for camel riders in LOTR. :wink:

Still they are slower than horses, but also they can charge with higher speed but for shorter distances. Usually females can keep steady higher speed for more distance than males.

Take a look at these photos.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/futsoulja/449684744
http://www.flickr.com/photos/futsoulja/ ... otostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/futsoulja/ ... otostream/
(next one is the dead camel - son don't open if you don't want to)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/futsoulja/ ... otostream/
This is a non-armed camel...not even a big one. :wink:
Author:  Black_Dragon [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
i agree with muslimrohirrim, camels were used in warfare and there is solid evidence for that

however it makes more sense for mahud to ride them, as camels survive better in harsh desert conditions, and the mahud not having any native horses are not rich enough to trade for them either
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Right, though I have to disagree with you this time :lol:
As the arabic horse is one of the most nobel and famous horses in the world, and it was bred and raised in the desert of the arabian peninsula. Known with his small head and raised tail. So Also horses were available. The arab knights force were known of their hit and run tactic to benefit from their light weight horses against other heavier horse breeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_horse
Author:  Black_Dragon [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Right, though I have to disagree with you this time
As the arabic horse is one of the most nobel and famous horses in the world, and it was bred and raised in the desert of the arabian peninsula. Known with his small head and raised tail. So Also horses were available. The arab knights force were known of their hit and run tactic to benefit from their light weight horses against other heavier horse breeds.


i was talking about the mahud warriors from lord of the rings not medievil arabs
Author:  The_Rhinosaurous [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Camels were never used for war in ways that horses were- camels would never and i mean never be taken over a horse in a situation where charging head on into the enemy was needed- yes they were used for war but not the the way horses were, camesl were used in desert enviroments in times like WW2 and eraly 1900's eras where guns were used over lances and stuff. A camel having 2 attacks and a strength 5 is just crazy, it just doesn't make sense when a WARG, a giant bear wolf thing is strength 4 1 attack, camels should be more like a horse with maybe 8" move and a strength 4-
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Black_Dragon wrote:
Quote:
Right, though I have to disagree with you this time
As the arabic horse is one of the most nobel and famous horses in the world, and it was bred and raised in the desert of the arabian peninsula. Known with his small head and raised tail. So Also horses were available. The arab knights force were known of their hit and run tactic to benefit from their light weight horses against other heavier horse breeds.


i was talking about the mahud warriors from lord of the rings not medievil arabs


Sorry if it was a little bit out of the topic, I was saying that both camels and horses were available and used in the desert environment like you said where they came came from.

Sorry again for confusing.
Author:  BrightLance [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Where is the two attacks coming from, and the strength 5? The camel is considered a horse, but just with a strength 4 impact hit. The mahud have two attacks, but not strength 5.

Just saying...
Author:  tirno.alyanorno [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
well, all muslimrohirrim's pictures really prove is that if you hit a few hundred kilos of flesh at speed, your car gets a nasty dent - but that is the same if you hit a horse

heres what wikipedia says:

Quote:
A fully-grown adult camel stands 1.85 m (6 ft 1 in) at the shoulder and 2.15 m (7 ft 1 in) at the hump. The hump rises about thirty inches (75 cm) out of its body. Camels can run up to 65 km/h (40 mph) in short bursts and sustain speeds of up to 40 km/h (25 mph)...the carcass of a male Bactrian can weigh up to 650 kg (1,400 lb).


Quote:
Light riding horses such as Arabians, Morgans, or Quarter Horses usually range in height from 14.0 (142 cm) to 16.0 hands (163 cm) and can weigh from 386 kilograms to about 540 kg (850 to 1200 lb). Larger riding horses such as Thoroughbreds, American Saddlebreds or Warmbloods usually start at about 15.2 hands (157 cm) and often are as tall as 17 hands (172 cm), weighing from 500 kg to 680 kg (1100 lb to 1500 lb).


so a camel is taller than a horse but the weight is roughly the same, so if that car had hit a horse, the effect would have been similar.

as has been said previously, a camel bucks like crazy, so aiming a lance is a waste of time! those impact things are just :? if you are being hit with 1/2 a ton of flesh, two little spikes on the side are not gonna make much difference
Author:  MuslimRohirrim [ Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok, you have to come and see the Camels here to really compare the size. Let me know if you decide to spend a vacation in Egypt sometime. :)

Though I have to say that in war a smaller camel was picked to be more agile (still bigger than horses). But what makes camel much powerful than horse is not just size/weight (though both are a plus), it's maily his dense bone structure. Camel has a very dense bone structure, they even compare it to an Elephant ivory hard. See the following links.

http://www.artfiberglass.com/flowers/96B1.html

And you wanna see how agile a well trained camel can be? look at the fifth pic from above in this page. The rider even carries a stick looks close to a spear.

http://he-mant.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html

Also this is another link about the Nabataean cavalry force. Even archers can be mounted on Camels, and they are not the only army who used them.

http://nabataea.net/horse.html

To add one more point, I don't say camels are better than horses, just that each has its pros and cons, a camel force was picked over horses for their stronger charge while horses for their more stability and maneuver. So all weapons could be used on Camels too, while of course sacrificing some precision for a heavier charge. Both were useful at different tactics and situations.


BrightLance wrote:
Where is the two attacks coming from, and the strength 5? The camel is considered a horse, but just with a strength 4 impact hit. The mahud have two attacks, but not strength 5.

Just saying...


I am not sure about the stats as I don't have any camel mounted units in the only manual I have MoM, so sorry if it's not as I only took it from this thread.
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