At what level do these rules start to feel broken? In my opinion, past 1000 points, even with multiple players, the game starts to get really cheesy. Too many heroes make it onto the table, the table gets to big, etc.

What do you think? I am trying to get War of The Ring going around my gaming group because SBG was not meant to be played at the level were playing at.

I often play 6000-point battles with SBG on an 11 foot by 6 foot table with multiple players. I've also re-fought Pelennor Fields a number of times with a similar points cost (never costed it properly). We have no problems with the scale of the game nor any broken aspects, apart from the sheer time taken to move 500+ miniatures (the last game lasted 13 hours, including pizza-eating time and other distractions).

None of my gaming group will ever play WOTR so if people like both systems then perhaps one or other may be better in certain circumstances. Certainly we've never found any fundamental drawbacks in SBG at any level.

I don't think big games are cheesy. Slow, maybe. but cheesy? No.

I'd rather play a 12 hour monster sbg game than a 45min wotr dice fest any day of the week, even though both use the same number of minis.

I'm firmly rooted in the 'WotR sucks' camp so probably lacking on the impartial aspect of this topic.

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You don't have to be great to start. But you do have to start to be great.

Throw me right in there with Ukfreddybear, as long as I'm not bored, my friends aren't bored and we're having fun it doesn't matter what points level. Whats the fun in collecting so many miniatures if they only last 1 hour in a fight?

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Sun is by sea-men always hoped for,
when they fare away over the fishes' bath,
until the brine-stallion they bring to land.
OERP

45 minutes?? The first game I played(and only WotR game I've played so far ) lasted all day. Of course, about half of the time was spent looking at the rules But I would think most games last a couple hours. I wouldn't say WotR sucks, but I would still prefer SBG over WotR almost anyday.

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My WIP thread: http://one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18247

I have the same problem.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

I like proof .

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"War does not determine who is right, only who is left."
- Bertrand Russel

I have not played WOTR enough to have an opinion yet. The only time I played my adversary spent the entire time complaining he did not like it. So it spoiled it for me. As for the skirmish system I think the only thing that hurts it is power gaming. I have used it for the Alamo,the wild west and the Pirate game. The Seven year war conversion I have been playing has convinced one of the most stubborn of the Historical players to use it instead of Pig Wars for Dark age. Tim wants to start a conversion for Star Wars. I know this is a Lord of the Rings forum, but if the basic system works in all of these different periods and scenarios we all should conclude it is a very good system. Bad sportsmanship ruins every thing.

I think a game master might be necessary for more than two players. Care should be taken with table size. Themed forces work much better. Don't mix different ages unless every one knows it ahead of time. A game master can just say no if power gaming becomes the issue.

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

war of the ring is in my opinion just as good as sbg. it is all preference and no i don't think large sbg games are cheesy. i just played a 1000 point match a couple weeks ago and it took 4-5 hours.

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When Isengard marches to war their is no stopping them.

I've played SBG up to 4000 points per side and have still not hit the point where the rules break down. The are very flexible and good for small or large games, obviously the games with more figures take longer to play. The 4,000 point took around 6 hours, including a break for lunch, photos, and lots of chat or just looking along the table at all the figures.

I don't games over 1000pts for SBG (ideally less than 700pts); I'm not patient enough.

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"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings

Eggman I do not think my Pm got to you. I am not sure what I did wrong. So here is the info.

Legends of the Old West,Legends of the Old West The Alamo,Legends of the Old West The Frontier, and Legends of the High Seas are all Warhammer Historical games: www.warhammer-historical.com
They work basically the same way. They also include a campaign system. I have added a few rules for the French and Indian war, and I am working on a Halloween pulp style game. I am calling it Plan 9-B from Outer Space. I remember some one was working on a Greek list and a fantasy Spartan -300 list.
The Alamo has some interesting units information rules I don't use for any thing else. The Seven Seas games has some extra swinging from rope rules I use for everything as a house rule.The Legends of the High Seas and The old West are core rules sets. The Alamo and the Frontier are more like supplements.
Hope this helps.
Charlie

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"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

I'll jump on the "there is no size limit" bandwagon - I think the limiting factor is the players' patience and desire to play very large games with a set of rules focused on individual models. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to play giant, 5+ hour battles, I'm just pointing out that I think SBG still works just fine at those levels if you're willing to make the time investment, and in some ways huge battles bring a more interesting new dynamic that you miss out on with smaller games - namely the "shifting" battle lines, as one side may perhaps gain ground on one end of the table while the enemies are doing better on the other side, in some areas no one's giving ground, etc.

I haven't yet played WotR, although I would like to. In any case, I can definitely see the appeal, and if you think about it in terms of "I don't mind massive battles that take a long, long time to play" then that same attitude can be extended to WotR. Think of how massive a WotR battle would have to be to take up 5 hours of your time! If you have the forces to play 6000 points of SBG, then you can probably muster an enormous WotR force, too.

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Well, that's my 2 cents.