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| [*] Gondorian Warship - by Grimhelm of Snowbourn http://wwww.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7736 |
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| Author: | The One Ring Community [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | [*] Gondorian Warship - by Grimhelm of Snowbourn |
Category: Constructions Article Type: Project Article Title: Gondorian Warship Author: Grimhelm of Snowbourn Article Description: Part 1 of a planned Treatise on Naval Miniature Wargaming >>Read Full Article |
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| Author: | Beatrice [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:59 pm ] |
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ooooooohhhh... what a great article! (I'll become an expert in ships soon  at least I learned a lot of english terms)
though I had followed the WIP thread and already knew a lot, it is so nice to see all essence of considerations and details combined in one article. e.g. the figurehead, it's so tiny and neat, or the wooden details on stairs and door, or the anchor, or the overall nice cut and laid out balsa pieces ... (but my fave are those two trees with elvic symbols!) |
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| Author: | Dorthonion [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:55 pm ] |
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A good article on something not seen in the films but referenced in the books and it has the potential for involvement in many coastal and riverine scenarios. It's a very brave step to take, coming up with something that fits into the genre without having the convenience of a mini or much in the way of artwork, but a very good argument for using the late medieval era ship design. I enjoyed the WIP thread too. Great to see people chipping in with their ideas and information. |
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| Author: | gondor captainamajig [ Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:35 pm ] |
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Hopefully when hobbyists start getting a bit more familiar with the game, this will be expanded upon. I recently played a coastal attack on a fortress with a friend, Goblins vs Elves, and it was really fun, especially when you can start coming up with siege engines for armies without ones. |
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| Author: | Curunír [ Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:49 am ] |
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This is an exceptional article Grim, very well done and the attention to detail (from the historical references in the beginning to the final thoughts) makes it an enjoyable read as well as a valuable resource for gaming. Thank you for sharing and congratulations! |
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| Author: | DurinsBane [ Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:26 am ] |
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It seems like the end of an era seeing this project come to fruition. I enjoyed watching this project grow in the forums and thought it had some very nice touches put into it. Nice work Grimhelm ! |
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| Author: | Azog [ Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:43 pm ] |
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Nice work Grimhelm, you show that there is MUCH MORE to the hobby than the GW way. A fantastic bit of work and I think the members will be inspired by the finished article. Well Done Mate ! Can't wait for Part 2.
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| Author: | hithero [ Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:46 am ] |
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A very good article but does fall down on a couple of things especially as research was carried out. Deck planking 'always' runs fore-aft. The lines are rather straight, especially the stern but this is very hard to get right on a model, so well done on what you did manage to do. Why paint it all brown, I don't know how I would paint mine but it just looks too brown, maybe the sides should be painted in a different colour? Please take this as constructive critisism as intended for you next marine project. |
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| Author: | Grimhelm of Snowbourn [ Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:49 pm ] |
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Azog wrote: Nice work Grimhelm, you show that there is MUCH MORE to the hobby than the GW way. A fantastic bit of work and I think the members will be inspired by the finished article. Well Done Mate!:wink: Speaking of the GW way, this is what they came up with; rather worrying seeing how we know they plan to release Corsairs  : http://thewarofthering.uk.games-worksho ... ir-ship/1/Anyway, it is good if other people are interested in shipbuilding; for more information, see my website on naval wargaming. It would be appreciated if anyone working on a ship project sends me a picture as per the site, as we can all benefit from other hobbyists: http://www.freewebs.com/portsofpelargir/ Dorthonion wrote: It's a very brave step to take, coming up with something that fits into the genre without having the convenience of a mini or much in the way of artwork, but a very good argument for using the late medieval era ship design. If you see my website, it contains much more material on the different period ships referenced by Tolkien. Other ships could be equally interesting, but the carrack is by far the largest and most impressive. hithero wrote: A very good article but does fall down on a couple of things especially as research was carried out. Deck planking 'always' runs fore-aft. The lines are rather straight, especially the stern but this is very hard to get right on a model, so well done on what you did manage to do. Why paint it all brown, I don't know how I would paint mine but it just looks too brown, maybe the sides should be painted in a different colour? Please take this as constructive critisism as intended for you next marine project. This is nothing new to me, as my family has been involved in ships and boats for generations. However, in my research into the Letters of JRR Tolkien, in Letter 211, he explains how he imagines the Numenoreans as Eqyptains. From what I have seen of the ships of antiquity, particularly Rome and Egypt, the planks run port-starboard. Also, looking into the films, Peter Jackson's (briefly shown) version of Elven ships seem to display port-starboard planks too. Fore-aft planks are there for construction-reasons. So why would these ships display such inherent flaws? Perhaps the Elves were incorrect in ship-construction, but for the finest race of ship-wrights in Middle-earth, this seems unlikely. Therefore, I had to assume that in the lands of Middle-earth the Elves had their own reasons for building ships thus - perhaps they discovered a means of effectively doing so, as they were after all, gifted with a "magic" of their own. Now, although the carrack would indeed run fore-aft as you suggest, the larger the ship, the easier it is to build port-starboard planks. While carrack-builders still found it easier to work fore-aft, the Numenoreans, as I have already said, are suggested as having used port-starboard planking. Now, as I have strongly hinted at in my article, the Wardens of Pelargir followed the traditions of the Numenoreans. And finally, because I wanted my ship to be slightly different from the typical carrack, I chose the direction of my planks accordingly. DurinsBane wrote: It seems like the end of an era seeing this project come to fruition.
But with the end of an era another begins. Look to my thread and you will see how much material I have for part two (and more!) of this planned series of articles: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/viewto ... 6719#76719 Thanks for your feedback! 
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| Author: | Bolg [ Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:58 pm ] |
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Well Grim, after watching and commenting through your whole WIP thread about this, I could expect no less!
Excellent article, and if I had the time, or skill, to complete this massive construction, I would! (You could make me one and I'll buy it off you! )
BRILLIANT!!!!!
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| Author: | hithero [ Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:58 pm ] |
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Unfortunatly I lent out my books on ancient ships, but I don't recall any that did not have fore-aft planking, here's a pic I found of anothers model galley which shows the deck. http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/romans/artefacts/051221_pelliott_mp_his_ww2_048.jpg I can't say I have seen any pics from the film of ships decking, got any to post? I can't see graceful elf vessels having port-starboard planking as it just looks so wrong in my eyes. And no, I'm not intending in making any ships in the near future, to many other things to do first, maybe when the corsairs supplement is released. |
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| Author: | Grimhelm of Snowbourn [ Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:35 pm ] |
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hithero wrote: Unfortunatly I lent out my books on ancient ships, but I don't recall any that did not have fore-aft planking, here's a pic I found of anothers model galley which shows the deck. http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/romans/artefacts/051221_pelliott_mp_his_ww2_048.jpg I'm the same - most of my books are in boxes I can't unpack at the moment. All I can find at hand is this picture of the aft of a Roman Trade Galley, based on the excavation of numerous wrecks (I have similar pictures in other books I can't find yet):  My understanding of Roman trade vessels is that the reason for port-starboard planking was to create a larger cargo hold (something the war-galley you found would't require). For the carrack - the "perfected transport ship" - a large hold would make sense for open-sea expeditions, and that would justify such planking. As a side note, what's especially interesting of the afore-mentioned picture is the Swan head at the back - I've long been thinking of something similar for Dol Amroth, but I'd rather not leak that information until after I've finished some of my smaller vessels. hithero wrote: I can't say I have seen any pics from the film of ships decking, got any to post? I can't see graceful elf vessels having port-starboard planking as it just looks so wrong in my eyes. I don't have the DVD at the moment, but I recall seeing them in the FotR EE, somewhere in the making of Rivendell, I believe.  But I completely agree with you on that point - for a smaller, graceful vessel without a large hold, fore-aft planking just makes more sense, and if I ever build Elven craft, I will stick to that plan. hithero wrote: And no, I'm not intending in making any ships in the near future, to many other things to do first, maybe when the corsairs supplement is released.
Well, they do take a huge investment of time for such a large terrain project (although they are fairly inexpensive to build), but somehow I can't trust what GW will come up with. The models are sure to be great, but I don't know if they'll fit in Pelargir and Gondor's fleet properly. But let's not get this thread too cluttered with technicalities of naval architecture and structural engineering. 
By the way, the article rating just dropped to 6.33/10. That means someone just gave it a 1/10! 
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| Author: | DurinsBane [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:06 am ] |
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I did a little research on this and it does indeed seem to be the fashion that decking runs from the front of the ship to the back (bugger the nautical terms). http://www.crafts123.com/ebay/Handicrafts/ShipHMSVictoryH8.jpg 
However...its only a model 
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| Author: | lightning2911 [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:32 am ] |
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very well done. both the ship and the article. i love the research part. its always great to learn something new! lightning |
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| Author: | MacGothmog [ Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:12 pm ] |
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AH! What an excellent piece of work! I love it! Nice job, pictures and clear text. I look forward to see the rest of the series mate! Stunning!
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| Author: | Kalamir [ Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:58 am ] |
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That was a fantastic read, And thankyou for the thanks
Great work!!! |
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| Author: | Tobold Hornblower [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:15 am ] |
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I am both stunned and shamed by the sheer amount of energy that you must have put into this. I whine about not having the energy to paint a single mini and you tackle projects like this! I don't know the first thing about ships, but I do know this impresses me a great deal, as does your knowledge of, and passion for, the subject. I found the port-starboard planking fascinating (wonderful response by the way) and, for what it's worth, is something I will never forget. These sorts of things tend to stick in my brain, totally unlike family birthdates. 
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| Author: | TheBucklandBrewer [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:32 pm ] |
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You've made an excellent article there mate, nice research and awesome result! I wish I could get the courage to finish something big like this! Looking forward to part 2!
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| Author: | songadoor [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:56 am ] |
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asom!!!! what did you use for the balista? |
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